July 2007 | home thanetonline.com michaelsbookshop.com Click here for books about The Isle of Thanet Dangerous cliff ?
this link takes you to the rest of my Pleasurama site this link takes you to my previous correspondence
July 2007 | Thanet District Council press release | Pleasurama update 6/6/2007 another years delay! | The temporary railings | Ramsgate | latest news | heads embedded in the concrete | Simon Moores Thanet life | Michael Child | Latest views | Details from the latest plans | Pictures 2007 | April 2007 | April replies | Replies to my email about the new introduction January 2007 | David Green | pleasurama update | Seafront site ready for rejuvenation | Companies House Search | correspondence | prompt replies | Action | Riddles | Committee | more | Follow up | councillors | councillors revised | spam your councillors | Councillors responses | Economical with the truth | The Member Portal | Taking the member out of the portal | Ken Gregory | Gerry O'Donnell | survey | May 2007 | Cracks over the voids | Engineers report on the condition of the cliff | more report | election results
My attempts learn about the Pleasurama project have lead me into a dialogue with Thanet District Council about their website and the way they pass on correspondence to councillors. Click on the links above to read the correspondence.
heads embedded in the concrete
I have been perusing the plans, aspects of them are rather strange, below is just an example. Frankly if the time wasted while this nonsense goes on wasn't damaging the economy of Ramsgate so much it would just be funny. The architects attempts to make the building fit in a space too small for it are just ridiculous. In one instance a lorry is shown in the car park, next the roof is lowered, so the top of the lorry is shown embedded in the ceiling, next comes a revision solving the problem the lorry has been made shorter. There are also sheets that show people with their heads embedded in the concrete above them. I have published some of the details from the plans so that you can see for yourselves, most of the plans are on the government planning website although oddly enough not the ones showing peoples heads embedded in concrete, however I have a full size architectural drawing something I consider to be one of my more interesting local history collectables.
Drawing PL 13-106 Side elevation West 4.11.2003
With some of the plans now on their fifth revision the latest appearing to have ceilings that are impossibly low, below is a common sense explanation of how it seems to me.
Drawing PL 13-106 Side elevation West 15.12.2003 The lorry has gone
First the building
There are four residential floors, you need about 3 meters per floor to have high enough ceilings the thickness of the floor and a gap to put all the wires and pipes into. There is also the ground floor, you need about 6 meters for this mainly so lories can get through the car park to make deliveries to the various service entrances and fire engines can get in. This all adds up to 18 meters on the plans that I have on paper the lowest the building is shown is 16.75 (on this sheet a lorry is shown passing through the ceiling like a ghost, in the next revision the height of the lorry has been shortened)
Drawing PL 13-106 Side elevation West 28.01.2004 I couldn't spot the difference
Then the space available
The measurements here are given as above datum (the lowest the sea level gets at low tide, used to denote height above sea level on all charts and maps) the lowest part of the cliff behind the building is 21.7 meters, and highest recorded tides in Ramsgate are 6.45 (in a storm there can be 3 meter high waves on top of this) allowing for global warming you would need to build above and well behind a sea defence at least 7.5 meters high. This leaves 14.2 meters at best.
Drawing PL 13-106 Side elevation West 18.01.2005 As you see the lorry has gone through the roof
So what we are looking at is wasted years while efforts were made to fit an 18 meter building in a 14.2 meter gap.
Drawing PL 13-106 Side elevation West 22.09.2005 This was easy for the architect to solve by making the lorry shorter
Of all of the information I have gathered recently, the newspaper article about the 1953 storm, saying that 12 ton crane was thrown by the sea to about where the glass fronted children's play area is planned, seemed to express the stupidity of the situation most clearly.
Drawing PL 13-106 Side elevation West Kneel down darling and we'll go inside
Drawing PL 13-106 Side elevation West Don't make such a fuss I'm sure they will chip our heads out after the bank holiday
Replies oldest at the top
Subject: Re: embedded in the ceiling Pleasurama plans Date: 07/04/2007 19:44:42 GMT Standard Time From: lauraprobert@btinternet.com
Keep up the good work Michael - your head is most definitely not embedded in the ceiling!
Subject: RE: embedded in the ceiling Pleasurama plans Date: 08/04/2007 09:45:40 GMT Standard Time From: poole@btinternet.com
Thanks Michael………
I left very similar to this page as a comment on David Greens blog.
Councillor Martin Wise left a comment immediately after mine, which addressed none of the issues raised, but I am hoping that he will engage in a dialogue on the subject. At the moment the inference that he has nothing to say on the matter is most disheartening.
Councillor Martin Wise has now telephoned me and has promised to try and get me some answers. I found him to be most courteous, he seemed genuinely keen to help.
Subject: public safety issues Date: 17/04/2007 16:21:33 GMT Standard Time From: Michael Child
to
Cdenham@thekmgroup.co.uk CC: Doug.Brown@thanet.gov.uk, terry@wwheeler.freeserve.co.uk, winterstoke@tiscali.it, mauriceburton@btinternet.com, rjwinramsgate@tiscali.co.uk, peterjude@landi4.freeserve.co.uk, terra_nova@btconnect.com, richglen@clements320.fsnet.co.uk, ralph@ralphhoult.co.uk, mrsmknight@hotmail.co.uk, Michael Child, margatemuseum@btconnect.com, lauraprobert@btinternet.com, Kedajone, johnmac1941@hotmail.com, jocelynm@talktalk.net, info@clivebaker.co.uk, fiona.fennell@kent.gov.uk, eddie@ramsgatebrewery.co.uk, curator@greatstorm.fsnet.co.uk, batt977@btinternet.com catblake@freeuk.com, poole@btinternet.com, sandy.ezekiel@thanet.gov.uk, CC: llaldred@yahoo.co.uk
Bobbreggub
robert.bayford@thanet.gov.uk
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AGreg115
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bill-hayton@bhayton.fsnet.co.uk
charles.hibberd@thanet.gov.uk
higgsl@parliament.uk
Iris.johnston@btinternet.com
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roger.latchford@thanet.gov.uk
Jeff.Kirkpatrick@btinternet.com
barbara.nicholson216@tesco.net
richard@rnicholson3.wanadoo.co.uk
william.peppiatt@thanet.gov.uk
ingrid.spencer@talk21.com
ingrid.spencer@thanet.gov.uk
margatecarnival@tesco.net
steve_ward@btinternet.com
zita@wiltshire1.fsworld.co.uk
martin.wise@thanet.gov.uk
Claire.Sivier@thanet.gov.uk
lucy.tuson@thanet.gov.uk
editorial@kosmedia.co.uk
eleonard@thekmgroup.co.uk
editor.thanet@kentregionalnewspapers.co.uk
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southeasttoday@bbc.co.uk
Annette.Firmin@thanet.gov.uk
Committee@thanet.gov.uk
jdr_kent@yahoo.com
howardm@parliament.uk
steveladyman@email.labour.org.uk
GaleRJ@parliament.uk
enquiryodpm@odpm.gsi.gov.uk
cpocrown@odpm.gsi.gov.uk
dc@odpm.gsi.gov.uk
devplan@odpm.gsi.gov.uk
regplan@odpm.gsi.gov.uk
hens@thecoop.orangehome.co.uk
laura@sandys.org.uk
LadymanS@parliament.uk
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Terry.Prue@hpiresearch.com
Michaelsbookshop
Last week some vandals threw one of the concrete blocks that support onto the roof of JGs they are heavy enough to go through a roof and kill someone inside the building. The public safety issues around this project are considerable and need to be addressed now before someone is killed or injured. The premise that you can pile drive next to a cliff, that we are all told has been so dangerous for the last two years that it has to have barriers to keep us away from the edge, without first making it safe. Or that you can build so low that in a storm you risk waves reaching the building and demolishing it, well its just not good enough, anyone care to comment? Only three people did last week when peoples lives are put at risk one would expect the council leader and the chief executive to have something to say, even if its only to tell me that I am wrong. Anything you don't send me confidentially will be published here http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/tdc/ Best regards to you all Michael.
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Your councillors responses,
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17/04/2007 19:22:16 GMT Standard Time
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Michael,
I think you do me a disservice, I have responded to your mails, and to say that Mike Harrison is the only councillor to respond is a little inaccurate
Ken Gregory
Subject: Re: public safety issues Date: 18/04/2007 13:56:13 GMT Standard Time From: Michael Child
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LADYMANS@parliament.uk
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Steve thank you very much I’d appreciate the help, so many people say that they will do things and then don’t, eliciting any sort of reply that actually could be called a straight answer to a reasonable question is becoming increasingly more difficult. All the best Michael.
In a message dated 17/04/2007 18:20:36 GMT Standard Time, LADYMANS@parliament.uk writes:
Michael
You are right to be concerned. I’ll write to the Council asking for their view and action.
Steve Ladyman
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Re: public safety issues
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18/04/2007 14:13:34 GMT Standard Time
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Michael Child
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lauraprobert@btinternet.com
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Et all
Laura thanks for the corrections I will send them out and publish them at http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/tdc/index.htm , I didn’t know that they were rubber and assumed they were concrete, judging from their weight I recon the could easily kill someone below the cliff.
As far as the state of the cliff is concerned my two main concerns are Wellington Caves, which I believe to be very large, if the top of it fell in thousands of tons of chalk would be involved some of Wellington crescent could be damaged, and the cliff face the other side of the lift at the top of Madeira Walk that appears to be in a very bad state its very close to the backs of the houses below. Best Michael.
In a message dated 17/04/2007 16:48:04 GMT Standard Time, lauraprobert@btinternet.com writes:
You missed out some words in the first line - which support the "temporary" fence - I certainly wouldn't want to work as a builder on that site with the threat of a cliff falling down on my head at any moment. Surely at least some of the concrete facing the cliff should be removed so everyone can see exactly what state the cliff is in behind it - mind you I wouldn't want a lump of concrete falling on my head either. I understood from Gerry that the rubber support fell on a house in Kent Terrace then bounced off - and the council's reply was "they shouldn't have done that!!!!!!" Whether "they" referred to the rubber things or the vandals is not clear.
.
Subject:
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Pleasurama seismic survey
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Date:
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23/04/2007 13:28:33 GMT Standard Time
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From:
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Michael Child
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Cdenham@thekmgroup.co.uk, Doug.Brown@thanet.gov.uk, terry@wwheeler.freeserve.co.uk, winterstoke@tiscali.it, mauriceburton@btinternet.com, rjwinramsgate@tiscali.co.uk, peterjude@landi4.freeserve.co.uk, terra_nova@btconnect.com, richglen@clements320.fsnet.co.uk, ralph@ralphhoult.co.uk, mrsmknight@hotmail.co.uk, margatemuseum@btconnect.com, Kedajone, johnmac1941@hotmail.com, jocelynm@talktalk.net, info@clivebaker.co.uk, fiona.fennell@kent.gov.uk, eddie@ramsgatebrewery.co.uk, curator@greatstorm.fsnet.co.uk, batt977@btinternet.com catblake@freeuk.com, poole@btinternet.com, sandy.ezekiel@thanet.gov.uk, CC: llaldred@yahoo.co.uk
Bobbreggub
robert.bayford@thanet.gov.uk
jobooth@tinyworld.co.uk
jackbernard.cohen@virgin.net
cook_barbara_ann@hotmail.com
kaydark@hotmail.com
simonday@clara.co.uk
trevoremes@freenet.co.uk
michellefenner@hotmail.com
johnfullarton@hotmail.com
bowenfuller@hotmail.com
brianandann@birchpark.fs.co.uk
greenliz@btinternet.com
AGreg115
Ian.Gregory@ekht.nhs.uk
cllrboggs@hotmail.com
bill-hayton@bhayton.fsnet.co.uk
charles.hibberd@thanet.gov.uk
higgsl@parliament.uk
Iris.johnston@btinternet.com
john.kirby@thanet.gov.uk
roger.latchford@btinternet.com
roger.latchford@thanet.gov.uk
Jeff.Kirkpatrick@btinternet.com
barbara.nicholson216@tesco.net
richard@rnicholson3.wanadoo.co.uk
william.peppiatt@thanet.gov.uk
ingrid.spencer@talk21.com
ingrid.spencer@thanet.gov.uk
margatecarnival@tesco.net
steve_ward@btinternet.com
zita@wiltshire1.fsworld.co.uk
martin.wise@thanet.gov.uk
Claire.Sivier@thanet.gov.uk
lucy.tuson@thanet.gov.uk
editorial@kosmedia.co.uk
eleonard@thekmgroup.co.uk
editor.thanet@kentregionalnewspapers.co.uk
thanetextra@thekmgroup.co.uk
news@meridiantv.com
newsdesk.thanet@kentregionalnewspapers.co.uk
southeasttoday@bbc.co.uk
Annette.Firmin@thanet.gov.uk
Committee@thanet.gov.uk
jdr_kent@yahoo.com
howardm@parliament.uk
GaleRJ@parliament.uk
enquiryodpm@odpm.gsi.gov.uk
cpocrown@odpm.gsi.gov.uk
dc@odpm.gsi.gov.uk
devplan@odpm.gsi.gov.uk
regplan@odpm.gsi.gov.uk
hens@thecoop.orangehome.co.uk
laura@sandys.org.uk
LadymanS@parliament.uk
bobsimmonds@surefish.co.uk
Terry.Prue@hpiresearch.com
Pleasurama update
I managed to get a quick look at the seismic survey sheets of the Wellington Crescent bandstand area. I have photographed them and published them at http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/tdc/id34.htm so you can all look at them. I have done my best and they are fairly readable.
There is only one area next to the railings about 10 meters by 3 meters where there is evidence of voiding so there would appear to be no justifiable reason for temporary railing along the whole length of the cliff above the proposed new development.
It is my hope that those responsible will either remove the temporary railings in the areas where they are unnecessary or provide some reasonable justification for them remaining
Best Regards to you all Michael